A TRULY INCLUSIVE LGBTI SOUTH AFRICAN FLAG?
Mambaonline.com recently reported that P2-INK, a Cape Town company, had launched a trademarked version of the well know global rainbow flag to become the new South African LGBTI flag. I initially commented on the article itself but was asked by the editor to write this opinion piece to further the debate. Let me be clear: this is my opinion but it reflects many comments made both online and in conversations held recently.
There are essentially two questions here as I see it: firstly, and most importantly, do we need a South African LGBTI flag; and secondly, is this latest version acceptable to all of us and properly constituted?
South Africa’s recent embarrassing track record relating to LGBTI issues at the UN and elsewhere notwithstanding, our nation is still viewed throughout Africa and the world as a guiding light for human rights in general and LGBTI rights specifically. We may not have been the first to allow gay marriage, but we certainly pioneered a truly free and fair constitution. When our democracy was seeking an inclusive national flag along with other essential symbols, broad and careful consultation, debate and consideration took place.
I advocate that such consultation is necessary here. Do we need a South African version of the rainbow flag that thereafter sets us apart from our oppressed brothers and sisters throughout this troubled continent, one that separates us rather than provides a single unifying symbol of pride against homophobia? Do we need to be distinct in the world, fully identified by our geography and people in relation to the global community, so that others can indeed do the same?
It is generally agreed that the gay rights movement began in the USA. The Gilbert Baker rainbow flag was born in 1978 in San Francisco, originally with eight colours (including hot pink and indigo blue) but these were removed for practical reasons a short time later. There exists a US gay flag that removes the red and white stripes of the national flag and replaces them with the six rainbow bars of the Baker flag. Yet a visual examination of pride events across the USA reveals very few of such flags in evidence – indeed it is the universal rainbow flag that features most prominently.
Travel anywhere in the world, either in person or online, and you will see the 1979 Baker original rectangle panel or a slightly modified version of that flag. Our global community of lesbians and gays have fully adopted it and regularly use it. I know of no patent, copyright or trademark relating to the universal six bar design. Practically speaking, it is easy to recreate, print or physically manufacture.
It has certainly been modified and applied in innumerable ways in the past 30 years. But the core remains the same. It’s readily identifiable and welcomed by communities in every corner of the globe.
In discussions I’ve held recently, it is apparent that a South African flag would be welcome, but ultimately would be more of a novelty as the lesbians and gays I spoke with said they’d probably fly both the South African and global pride rainbow flags alongside one another to advocate national solidarity within the community. Many already own a version of the global pride flag and adding to it is seemingly unnecessary.
“…I’m not sure that this has been very well thought out or that sufficient consultation with the wider South African LGBT community has taken place.”
A national debate is wholeheartedly necessary to discuss this question. If something is to be regularly used to represent our community, then most of us need to buy into that. This has to, in our South African context, include as diverse an audience as possible including all races, language groups, political and social groups, ages and people from various economic backgrounds. Our nation and our constitution were built on consensus and dialogue. So should any significant developments affecting the LGBTI community.
Turning to the P2-INK South African LGBTI flag design, there have been typically mixed reactions. Certainly, the design employed isn’t very innovative and this view was shared by a significant proportion of people asked to consider it. Ultimately, the debate has been less about the actual design, and more about the manner in which it has come about.
South African copyright law protects original visual, written and audio work from exploitation. Our laws provide for significant penalties for infringement of trade mark, the visual devise of a company such as Coca-Cola, that cannot be recreated or used without the owner’s express permission as it is physically the intellectual property of the company, nor can any design confusingly similar to the original be used.
The application procedure takes approximately two years on average before approval and must thereafter be renewed every 10 years with CIPRO (Companies Intellectual Property Registration Office; see www.cipro.co.za). An unregistered trade mark can be defended in terms of common law, especially relating to copyright.
Not all designs submitted to CIPRO are approved. For instance, when someone uses the South African flag in a design, the design will be asked to be amended, as this design would otherwise be too close and confusingly similar to national symbols protected by the state or of public importance. An example of acceptable design would be the Proudly SA logo and campaign.
Trademarking a design implies explicit ownership of the intellectual property and herein I have a serious problem when it comes to the P2-INK flag design.
The base design of this particular flag is the Gilbert Baker flag of 1979 and thus remains unchanged. The only addition is three stripes (one black, two white) that imply resemblance to the national flag. A private company has juxtaposed two public flags on top of one another with little amendment to colouration or structure and declared it the sole property of that company.
The company has stated this design is trademarked but have not clarified whether a) the design is merely claimed to be copyrighted by P2-INK, b) the design has been applied for trademark, or c) the design has officially been approved by CIPRO.
The fact that a community organisation such as Cape Town Pride appears to have adopted the P2-INK trademarked and commercial LGBTI flag, is in my opinion troubling. More so in that one of the partners in the company is said to be directly involved with Cape Town Pride. I don’t doubt that intentions are good all around but I’m not sure that this has been very well thought out or that sufficient consultation with the wider South African LGBT community has taken place.
It does not bode well within our broader culture and the current trends for greater community participation in such ventures are being overlooked. Would unique event branding (including a flag) especially developed for Cape Town Pride and its marketing not have been a better route to take?
Fundamentally, I believe our community interests should never be fully privatized, be they ecological, ideological or practical. Any company should be able to produce and market products targeted at LGBTI consumers but not with the commerci
bullshit money making scheme. just another scheme to milk the gay community
not so. Hi,
P2-INK is working hard to donate the flag sales for GLBT NGO’s and NPO’s. So where is the money making scheme
Its all about the money!!!
These guys are really trying their best to milk the gay community!
We already own Pride Flags!! what excatly does yours do that my “globally recognised flag” cant?
You asking us to buy – operative word “BUY” into your flag and ideal of becoming a rich man! nice try!!!
How about you open up your business for an audit and lets see how much charities exactly get? Wheres your annual report? – granted you not in business for that long yet..
Not really interested and I hope everyone sees it for it is – a SCAM!
Go try your luck elsewhere…
We can do better. I am all for it. The gay flag unites gays around the world, and a South African version thereof will create unity between the South African gays. Imagine being in Europe or New York, or Australia, or at the Gay Games and seeing our very own flag. I have no issue with the copyright, all good products are copyrighted. Why do we have a problem with this one? Perhaps because it is so unoriginal, and they stole the exact EXISTING gay flag and tweaked it a little (VERY little) and expect us to pay for it
Surely we can come up with a more original version rather than taking the EXISTING gay flag, put on a black triangle, and two white stripes, I mean come-on, how long did this take the designer to come up with this – 5 minutes? It surely looks like it. I can do better than that and I am no designer
So I say to P2-INK, if you REALLY want our support for your product and idea, then throw it out there, launch a competition for designs – I mean to say, there are thousands of gay designers out there. Then narrow it down, and LET THE COMMUNITY vote on the best design. This feels like it was just thrown in our faces. THERE, and you WILL like it and you WILL pay for it!!!!
Up with the SA gay flag, down with the design
Doing our best. Hi Gary,
Thank you for supporting the concept of the GLBT flag of South Africa.
I am sorry that you do not feel the design is unoriginal; however we needed to keep the design simplistic to have it immediately have bring the GLBT people and South Africa to the forefront of peoples thoughts when they see it.
To be fair your suggestion of changing the black stripe for a triangle is not much different from my own (which a Loerie winning designer assisted with).
Having the competition will still shift the focus from the need, value and concept of having a GLBT flag of South Africa to a question of design. It would also leave divided factions because they would then have recourse by saying “I didn’t vote for that design, so it doesn’t represent me”.
I therefore ask you as someone who does see the value of the GLBT flag of South Africa to judge P2-INK and myself on the work that we are doing and the value we are adding to the pink community.
further comments welcome at info@p2-ink.com
Thanks for the reply. I get what you are saying, and I know from experience that it is close to impossible to satisfy the gay community.
But with that said, you said with a competition you will get people not supporting it because they did not vote for the winning design. How is that different from now? I think you’ll get even more people now not supporting it, because, as I said in my first post, no one else from the community but the P2-INk people were involved or had any say in what is supposed to present them in the future.
At least if it was thrown out to the community there would be a feeling of some sort of involvement.
But I do not wat to dwell on could have, would have, should have’s. I will, personally, continue to support anything that attempts to unite the South African gay community. It is something we need badly.
Hear hear. Couldnt have said it better myself. Xxx
Somebody want’s to make a quick buck. WTF. The original rainbow flag was and shall always be inclusive. I don’t see any need for this ugly version of it. P2-INK only wants to exploit South African’s fixation of being “political correct” Being gay is not a political nor a commercial issue.
DONATING!. Hi Peter.
Thank you for your comment.
Allow me to respond from P2-INK’s perspective.
I agree, the international rainbow flag is inclusive, however it has become so inclusive that local issues of corrective rape and the “Un-Africanness” of homosexuality is overlooked.
It is up to us as a community to address this. My concept of the GLBT flag of South Africa is a method to do this.
It is wonderful that you do not see the need for the GLBT flag of South Africa, because it means you have had little prejudice and hatred directed towards you.
However black lesbians in townships are raped amost daily. 10 a week in Cape Town alone, with severe assualt in addition to standard rape cases. Ndumie Funda fighting this scourge immediately saw the value of the South African GLBT flag.
So on second thought it is also a tragedy that you do not see need for this version of the flag because it means you are out of touch with the realities of large segments of South Africa’s GLBT community.
I would also like to point out that South Africa is fixated on “politically correct” because we were so “politically incorrect”. Treating people with sensitity and dignity is still lacking in our country.
I agree that being gay is not a political issue, however maintaining the right to equality regardless of being gay is key. Our lesbians in the townships may have won constitutional equality, but they are facing danger and imminent assault on a daily basis, whilst our polititians are doing nothing, and our police force remain disinterested and inept at addressing this hate crime.
Please go to change.org and educate yourself on this matter.
if you want to contact me directly please send me an e-mail to info@p2-ink.com
South Africa is curre
so tedius… ..i can’t even read it! other than it looking like a black wang being forced up a white gwat i have no thoughts on this.
Now that you mention it , it really looks like it. Sounds very kinky LoL
opinion. Hi JP,
Your opinion matters to P2-INK. Please let us know your thoughts.
Huge info@p2-ink.com
shock horror. I think anyone using or buying this flag should be put in jail for life. It’s a travesty!
p.s. What’s with all the boring info in this article? I almost fell asleep reading it.
tolerance. Hi Berta,
I am sorry to hear that you think the GLBT Flag of South Africa a travesty. Many think it a neccessity.
I can only hope your comment on jailing those buying the flag I designed was meant as a joke and that you in reality see the value of promoting tolerance in our society. Otherwise I shudder to think what you conjoured up or me.
if you’d like to contact me directly please send e-mail to info@p2-ink.com
shock horror. I was joking P2-INK. I am sorry.
I thought Jason’s article was a waste of energy. Looks like lots of people have been wasting their energy on it.
I can’t think of a reason not to have a flag. We should have 50 flags if we want to. Then we’ll be the flag design capital of the world. What’s wrong with that?
I’m not mad about the design but I’m certainly not offended by it.
Ugly. Apart from the arguments levelled above against the flag, there is the fact that it’s also incredibly ugly. It looks like a toddler’s first go on Microsoft Paint. Look! More colours!
Opinions differ. Hi Riaan,
I am sorry you feel this way about the flag.
I hope at least you can see the value in concept.
F.Y.I. An Loerie-Award winning designer was a key part of the design process and hundreds have personally expressed the fact that they think it pretty.
Feel free to contact me directly at info@p2-ink.com
Bloody insolence!. I might just do a patent search at CIPRO…
Apropos: IMHO exploiting two well-known symbols by merging them very unimaginatively and then having the audacity to trademark & copyright a platitudinal derivative of international and national symbols have significant implications. But enough on that.
Does the enterprise wish to cash in on a spuriously fused identity?
best intentions. Hi Jesse,
Thank you for your comment.
I can assure you that the design and the registering of the GLBT flag of South Africa and trademarking it has not implications except from me having the right to promote it and to prevent the exploition of it by large corporations for their advertising.
If only I was able to “CASH IN”, because at the moment P2-INK and myself are giving proceeds of flag sales to Luleki Sizwe and other charities.
For more information contact me directly at info@p2-ink.com
I have to agree with most of these comments. The fact that it is a blatant attempt to make money means that all the other issues brought up; whether we need our own flag, broader consutation, etc are unnecessary.
If the goal of this exercise was truly for the good of the community, there wouldn’t be any talk of a trademark.
GOOD of the COMMUNITY. Hi,
P2-INK thanks you for your comment.
P2-INK’s efforts and endeavours have been portrayed as a blatant attempt to make money, despite it being a vehicle to generate proceeds for pink community causes.
Also P2-INK trademarked the flag so that we could have the right to manufacture the flags, and also to prevent the flag from being abused by corporations and those who do not really carry the pink community’s issues at heart.
Feel free to contact me directly for futher information at info@P2-INK.com
Why so mean. jealousy makes you ugly
THANK YOU!. Dear Vulan,
Thank you for your support.
Let’s hope the pink community can see the value of the GLBT flag of South Africa
For more info contact info@p2-ink.com
Huge Brockman
gay pink. Who is Jason Fiddler?
Not really an objective article is it, i think it is wrong to bash people who are trying to bring something to the community. From what I hear in Cape Town these guys are contributing to what they can.
Thumbs down to Mamba for not researching the article properly.
Thank you!. Dear Stuart,
Thank you for your comment.
I would also like speak to Jason Fiddler and get to the root cause of this article.
I can assure you that the article is PREJUDICED and SUBECTIVE. No one has engaged me or anyone related to the GLBT flag of SA.
I can confirm that we have contributed our utmost to Cape Town’s pink community causes.
I am only hoping Mamba is open to printing a retraction or at least rewriting the article at the soonest to show my point of view which they can verify with many in Cape Town’s GLBT community.
For more info contact info@p2-ink.com
Huge Brockman
objectivity. Jason – i tend to agree with Stuart, where is the P2-ink guys side of the story?
THANK YOU. Hi Jason,
Please see our side of the story above!
Your objectivity is appreciated.
For more info contact info@p2-ink.com
Huge Brockman
Its an opinion piece not and article…
Its an opinion piece not and article…
VIVA SA GAY FLAG!!.
I just went to http://www.p2-ink.com – has Mambaonline read these? HOW DARE YOU? Iimpukane eziluhlaza zithi (even before I read this) this flag also represents our black lesbian sisters. Where is the international gay flag in Gugulethu? These P2-INK – They are our heroes! I will march at Pride with my black gay friends holding this flag high no matter what you gay whities say! AMANDLA!!! DOWN WITH RACIST MAMBA ONLINE! DOWN!!!
Our website. Hi Inyoka,
Thank you for your initiative!
Yes it is stated clearly on our website that we are giving proceeds to Luleki Sizwe and other causes in Cape Town.
After tonight being labeled a hero is deeply moving and it shall be my highlight from writing responses this early morning.
I do not think Mamba Online is racist, however Jason Fiddler did write from a gay white South African man’s point of view, and completely did overlook the realities black gays and lesbians face.
I hope to see you at pride!
Feel free to contact me at info@p2-ink.com.
Your passion deserves a flag!
MAMBA IS RACIST. I agree!
my opinion. The rainbow flag is a world-wide symbol – you can go anywhere in the world and know that if you see a rainbow flag you are welcome there as a member of the LGBTI community.
This “south african” version shows utter disregard for the international symbol and total lack of respect for the symbolism behind it.
Also, who are “P2-INK” to create this flag and claim it to be the south african version? I guarantee you that the number of people involved did NOT constitute a quorum of the LGBTI community in south africa.
I may only be one gay man out of many thousands in our community – but I definitely was not consulted, surveyed, or included in the creation process behind this new flag. Because of this exclusion I immediately detest the concept and the people behind it.
It is this kind of disrespect to the global gay community that continues to place south africa lightyears behind the rest of the world.
When will the gay community realise that the only way forward is to work together, and not against each other? Why continue to damage our integrity?
My side of the Story #1. I am Huge Brockman, the designer and person behind the flag.
I would like to thank all readers and Mamba Online for actively pursuing GLBT rights in South Africa and bringing this topic to public debate.
Mamba Online keeps referring to P2-INK as “a company” but “What is a company?”
If a company means two people with a dream to do good and effect change in South Africa, you would be correct. We live in a one bedroom apartment with two laptops, a lot of boxes and a shrinking savings account but a happy sense of pride. Regardless, we are devoting all our time and effort to this project and giving away an exceedingly high percentile of any flag sales to charities such as Luleki Sizwe (in combat of corrective rape).
We enthusiastically volunteer the majority of our time and effort to an inclusive GLBT community project.
Yes, we are trying to establish a company but not in the traditionally ruthless capitalist sense, but in the spirit of Vuk’Zenzele (working together for a common good) ? and most certainly not with the implied intentions as written by Mambaonline without ever contacting me for comments.
SEE NEXT POST!
Like flag. Yebo! Toyi-toyi?!!
mamba shame on you. Just read the P2-ink statement – thank GOD for them. I agree with inyoka nesele – even though I am a white gay boy – I also see why you think mamba is racist given that white people have no idea about what lesbians go through in townships. This flag is a fantastic unifying symbol and I hope that black gay South Africans will understand (and believe) that the majority of us (white gay boys) support and love you and that we do not agree or associate ourselves with racists who does not give a damn about you. This flag is fantastic. Mamba online ows the lesbian black community of SA and P2-ink a huge apology
Thank you!. Hi Dewald,
Thank you very much for your support and thank you for showing your objectivity and reaching accross the racial divide regarding this article.
The GLBT flag of South Africa is intended to be a unifying symbol in our pink community and I applaud your comments!
Thank you!
Again contact me at info@p2-ink.com
You also deserve a flag…
@GB- racist moegoe. GB, you Racist MOEGOE! What does the international flag have to do with our issues here in SA? Why don’t you COME OUT of your clean white neighbourhood and come and see that our struggle has NOT ended because of moegoes like you.
uh… racist?. How is anything that gb said racist. The rainbow flag symbolizes inclusiveness, this flag does not. It excludes anyone who isn’t South African, and as such doesn’t show support for the greater community in threat on the rest of the continent.
Disagree if you do, but racist is as racist does, and gb definately didn’t say anything racist.
Wtf playing the race card?. You are the raceist sweetypie. Get over your strugle now, and stop playing the race card. I have a nice flag you can wave… To memorate your struggle… Its a pink skroplappie
PETUNIA U R A RACIST. Geez Petunia! Can you at least PRETEND not to be a racist??? Is it not what your type is supposed to do?
You know where you can stuff your pink skroplappie….
catch a wake up. Sean… don’t comment on things you have no clue about. I am so not a racist… I am however fed up that the race card must be played in almost everything, to try and accomplish things. There should be no favourism because of the colour of ones skin. Period. Catch a wake up – we entered 2011 the struggle has been over for ages.
And why is it ok for black people to call other racists and when whites point it out, then its wrong? Wat jy saai sal jy maai… Maraai.
Toodles
GREAT FLAG. Love it- leave it alone!!
UNFAIR ARTICLE. Geez. Did someone piss off this Jason reporter-dude? Why is he so angry? This is bad journalism. (Is there a story behind the story with Jason? Do tell! Sound more like a lover’s squabble if you ask me!!!) Yeah man! Leave our SA gay flag alone. We dig it!!!
Also, amazing everyone is commenting on this article while there is another __-TWO GAY IRANIANS FACE STONING article….mmmmm…..Happy about all the positive comments on the flag, but why don’t those guys who had bad things to say comment on the Iranian issue? I guess there is nothing to BITCH about – I guess they will also say that gay men (yes, and women) in Iran do not have their own issues. Imagine a gay flag for Iran. Yes… you negative people are racist….
Opinion piece vs article – thats the diffs. Its called an opinion piece… And he clearly mention it in the first paragaph
I wount fly this flag. History, strugle etc aside. A. this is ugly and unimaginative. B. it dont reflect the whole community and C. Nobody voted democratically for this plagarism to be a representing SAs LGBT community. We deserve something waaaaay better. This lappie can be placed with the Obama Dolls and furry hand cuffs in the novilty bin…
Choice. So Don’t fly it…It’s your choice
and your money. my choice and your money you waste on novilty
I wount fly this flag. History, strugle etc aside. A. this is ugly and unimaginative. B. it dont reflect the whole community and C. Nobody voted democratically for this plagarism to be a representing SAs LGBT community. We deserve something waaaaay better. This lappie can be placed with the Obama Dolls and furry hand cuffs in the novilty bin…
Love the flag. Why be so hurtful?
hate the flag… love the fag. not hurtful at all skarrebol… just realistic
LOVE THE FLAG!!!. Petunia – let us not go there – your statements are hurtful.
LOVE THE FLAG!. Petunia- Let us not go there. Your statements are hurtful.
Flag supporter!!!!!!. Morning folks. And so the white racist slurs continue…sigh…Yes..very hurtful to millions of people. God, I did not know people like that still existed (nah..I did, just made me fell better saying it…)
Let me take this opportunity, as a white gay man, to to say to Petunia – YOU SUCK!!!
Silliness. The international gay community transcends regionality and nationality. I believe it is wrong to attempt to inject a national identity into one of the very few truly internationally unifying symbols around. There is no need for it and the motives behind creating it seems spurious.
Whenever I hear about human rights abuses in other countries it strikes me how important maintaining that sense of community and kinship is. It is also a reminder of how fragile our own legal condition is in South Africa, and how easily our rights can be taken away. I, for one, would prefer leaving the gay flag untouched.
Jason Fiddler. The only person who believes Jason Fiddler is a journalist is Jason Fiddler.
JF. i once slept with a JF in the early 2000’s. He was from durbs and as i recall – bit of an ass! Same 1?
The New SA Gay Flag. I read with dismay the utterings of Jason fiddler regarding the lauch of the new gay flag – I am the managing editor of OUT Magazine and was also the event director for MCQP in Cape Town during the launch
The owners of the project (P2Ink) recently arrived back in South Africa after living overseas for many years, since their arrival back in the country they have been extremely keen and excited about getting involved in community projects and both owners are currently and very actively involved in this years Cape Town Pride as well as projects for our community in the townships
It has cost them a small fortune to lauch the flag and any sane person only has to do a few calculations to see there is no fortune to be made from that project
The new South Africa does not have a bad track record anywhere and indeed is the only country on the continent to constitutionally protect our community
The flag is a wonderful medium for bringing the community together and I believe instills a great sense of national gay pride – in the bad old days we marched with brown bags on our heads and would have been arrested at the thought of rallying under a flag and now that we have won that battle we get the likes of Jason who has had 20 years to have referendums and forums and meetings if he wanted to do the same
It would be marvelous if we had many more people who were prepared to freely give their time, energy and entrepreneurial skills to the community – maybe Jason could get more involved in a practical way instead of bitching from the sidelines and dampening the enthusiasm of others
Well done – and the flag looks great as well…
Love it. I for one love the flag. Get it guys – The SOUTH AFRICAN GAY FLAG – Dah! So it’s a take on the design of the National flag, as it should be – Dah! Get over it, don’t buy it if you don’t like it. Don’t wave it if it offends you. Don’t harp on about its negatives if you have nothing positive to say. Geez! And yes it does reflect the whole community, I don’t understand why it wouldn’t and thank heavens we didn’t have to vote on it because that little process would take so long to achieve because it would be so politicised and fraught with opinions it would probably never get off the ground.
So get it – it’s simply the international gay flag South Africanised – what’s the big deal!!!
Flag. Hi all. I have been reading through these comments and the one thing I need to say is that I wish we could have given the same exposure of the flag to Durbs, Jo’Burg, PE, Bloem, Vaal Triangle and all the other cities, towns and townships! The flag is only 4 weeks old and we do not have a PR machine behind us. BABY STEPS……
Much love
xxx
What’s your problem P2-INK?. You seem to be quite involved in this discussion, but moreover feeling offended about an option raised in an publication, which is clearly marked as such.
A few concerns:
* In my personal opinion I do not think the flag is necessary. I’d rather prefer a South African flag amongst a foreign or local pride march than your design. The South African Flag provides unity on a local level and includes all people beyond boxes and labels. To adopt a local flag does unjust to both flags. Besides the design is not very appealing to me either and feels not original, but that’s a matter of taste.
* It is understood you are in the process of having the design protected as intellectual property which will be vested in your company and ultimately under the control of the two owners. You state in previous comments that this would be to protect the flag and being used by companies in advertising and marketing. More likely is the reasoning that you want to protect your own interests, keep the options open for future licencing and for the time being make sure all money goes into your pockets first.
* If it is a community flag, the copyright needs to be vested in a trust, foundation, etc. This works well for Open Source and Creative Commons. Any of the prides would be a good entity to protect the integrety of the artwork.
* As per your pledges to community – these need to be proven still. So far I hear and see a lot of marketing speech. You got the exposure and whatever you claim donating to the community is much less value than what you would have need to pay in advertising. Donations from a commercial to charity/community organisations have nothing to do with their business and are distinct different from their products. To argue people who don’t like the flag or the idea of a flag are supporting corrective rape, are against the community, racist or have a lack of understanding is wrong and twisting words. Armscor has a social responsibility programme as well. If I don’t like Armscor I’m not against the constituencies of their CSI programme or the values thereof.
Most disturbing is your reaction to demand what kind of coverage mambaonline has and to what you define ‘a fair media platform’, which is publishing a ‘objective account on the GLBT’.
On all face value – you are selling a product, wheather Ndumi likes it or not or if you sponsor Cape Town Pride or not is irrelevant to that fact.
There can be no demands whatsoever what the media writes about your product or their opinion thereof. If you want coverage with your marketing message, then pay for an advertisement.
:). well said!! amen
Proud. I was at this years MCQP and was very proud to see the flag hanging in the village as well! I dont know what the fuss is all about? At least they are doing something for our community!
Thanks guys!!
Flag saved my life. This flag made me cry. I was so happy abou this , it gave me the courage to come out last week and i was thinking of killing myself. The flag saved my life and it made me proud to be South African as well as being gay!
we love you ‘evin. Kevin, you are NOT alone. Please know that our thoughts and love are with you. You sound like a wonderful person whom has gone through much. I am in tears when I write this – but I want to tell you – WE LOVE YOu – We are happy that you are still with us. Thank you so much for sharing your story. You are proud. You are strong and. I wish – knew who you were becaue the one thing o wanna do right now is to hug you. The 2nd is to get on my knees and say than you – you are with us. Please understand that your comment has reached and touched more people in need than you may ever imagine.
Love to you.
Brent
OMG KEVIN – WE LOVE YOU. Best of luck Kevin. You are NOT alone. Congratulations for making the right choice. The world has just become a much better place BECAUSE OF YOU DUDE!!!
AMANDLA AWETHU! VIVA KEVIN!. Our thoughts r with you my brotha!!! I just told yo storie to my friends. Here is a message from us to you -AMANDLA AWETHU! VIVA KEVIN! Your are a hero brotha!!
Freedom of Choice. I really don’t know what all the fuss is about.
It seems to me that South Africans don’t like to see other South African succeed. Would any entrepreneur need to discuss and consult with the communinty if he or she were about to open a gay bar or a shop selling products aimed at the gay community? So what if they hope to make some money? Since when did having an idea and cashing in on it become a crime? Maybe the idea is not so original. So what? So you think they are riding on the coat tails of the “Community”? Perhaps….but what of all the bars, clubs, restaurants who weekly exploit the gay market and who treat their gay clientelle with contempt and get away with inferior service? So if these P2-INK guys can support community projects and Pride whilst making a living, why not? At least they are not stealing money from the community…there have been enough sorry examples of that.
How come the self appointed Protectors of our Gay Integrity are not kicking up a fuss about, for example, Mr Gay South Africa, a copywrited brand run by a company which, like any other capitalistic venture, hopes to make a profit? The same can be said for MCQP and the Pink Lourie Mardi Gras, both private companies. When did initiative become a dirty word?
We all have the freedom of choice in what to consume. Nobody forces you to read mambaonline or watch SATV or go to MCQP or buy this new gay SA Flag. They are not claiming that this is the official and only gay flag, but their interpretation of it. There’s nothing stopping anyone else coming up with and marketing an alternative. Some gay establishments in Cape Town are flying the flag because they have chosen to. Other have chosen not to. In the end, it is the market which will determine the success or failure of this venture.
Really, we are our own worst enemy. As someone else to poignantly pointed out in this forum, Gay Iranians are being stoned to death and lesbians are being raped in the townships and some of us have nothing better to do than to put each other down.
And as to who represents the gay community, well that is a very good question. Every gay organisation I know has at some point faced accusations of being non-representative, elitist, racist, exclusive, misogynistic, androphobic…you name it. In the end, there are as many opinions as there are people and all comes down to our own personal tastes or convictions. We are fortunate to live in a society where we can voice our opinions and express our criticisms. We are free to differ.
So if you don’t like this Gay SA Flag, don’t buy it. It’s your choice and it really is as simple as that.
And oh yes, mambaonline is not racist. Unfortunately some of the people who use this very useful and welcome forum are. But they only expose their own ignorance and stupidity. It is important for us to be aware that such people do exist, especially when sometimes these same people talk about homo-prejudice.
Keep the flag!. I love it!! Why do South African gays have to be so bitchy!!
Impartial. Has mambaonline even interviewed p2-ink? This “journalist” is an idiot! Well wishes to the flag and i send lots of good vibes! Do not let this get you down! you have only been around for a couple of weeks but i tell you – thousands support you! Keep going!
Yes, but no. I have read, agreed and supported your comment on the first article.
And while I feel the same, my viewpoint is only a little bit different.
The formalities, and processes you mentioned doesn’t really bother me.
1. Instead I feel we should ask: “Is it necessary to have a South Africa only flag?” Which as you put it, once again discriminates against all non-SA gays – which ironically is basically the opposite of what the original flag is about!
and
2. If it is deemed necessary, it should as you said, undergo the propper planning and dialogue.
To be blunt, I find this flag boring, uncreative and naturally unoriginal.
Looking at it gives me the impression that it was quickly created in a rushed moment because someone had forgotten a deadline.
Personally, I’ll be embarrased if I had to wave this flag.
discrimination?. 1. Why would non-SA gays feel discriminated against? I don’t understand
2. If you are embarrassed to wave the flag, then don’t. No-one is going to make it compulsory for you to do so
I knew everyone wouldn’t get it
I agree with you, I don’t believe a South Africanised flag is necessary. The original gay flag is a symbol that unites gay people worldwide: it is counter-intuitive to inject a South African identity into it, especially at a time when so many LGBTI are under threat in other countries in Africa. We should be displaying solidarity with them, instead of forcing a national identity.
@ P2-Ink. I still stand by what I said below,
But your comments on mamba online being impartial is unfounded.
People unfortunately jump to conclusion way to quickly.
It is clear that mamba is encouraging dialogue which, evidently, is
sex!. purely from a visual point of view – the flag looks like a black pointed something headed for a white splayed something. Euw – must everything be about sex? How about a nice rainbow coloured t pot? Or a my little pony with a rainbow coloured tail?
hahahaha. lol! love it
well. that all made perfect sense to me. thanks for your efforts. *smiley*
yay gay yay flag!!!. Ok…could not hep to check in again. Glad the racists have decided to shut the heck up Slly idiots.
BTW – if you wanted to do something better then __________
1. Why have you not done so in the last 15 years?
2. Why do you not take money from your own personal pockets (like these guys have done, eccentric as it may seem) and do the same? Throw out a couple of hundred thou! I dare you! See how well you. I DARE YOU!!!!
Can we just put all of this to rest? This is SOMETHING that UNIFIES us as GAY SOUTH AFRICANS!!!!!
Fuckin yay gay yay gay yay!!!!!!
PS I managed to get may hands on a big flag – wait until you see me at Pride in that parade! (OK…need to work on the abs…lol!)
Sean
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
PPS gay flag of SA is getting more atention than any other topic on this site. Sad, but true
puke. sorry… couldn’t think of anything better to use as a subject… but that’s what you and your comment drive me to… are you 12? I hope so cauz that will explain your state of mind…
to answer…
a. the race thing has NOTHING to do with this. grow up and move on
b. Why have you not done so in the last 15 years? because nothing is wrong with our country… (o i guess your 16 or 18) … still – grow up
2. Why do you not take money from your own personal pockets (like these guys have done, eccentric as it may seem) and do the same? Throw out a couple of hundred thou! I dare you! See how well you. I DARE YOU!!!! – sweetie pie… with ouderdom you will learn – IF SOMETHING ISNT BROKEN – DONT FIX IT…
3. Can we just put all of this to rest? This is SOMETHING that UNIFIES us as GAY SOUTH AFRICANS!!!!! __- mmm something intelligent you said after all… but then again – plagiarism don’t unite people… democracy does., AND uniqueness (what this silly piece of lappie definitely not qualify as)
PS I managed to get may hands on a big flag – wait until you see me at Pride in that parade! (OK…need to work on the abs…lol!) __- sorry you wasted money on this, that was exactly what P2ink wanted… just another sucker fell for it – like all this Power Balance wrist thingies…
YAY! I HAVE THE FLAG!!. “PETUNIA” you keep saying that this is not about race – it is ALL about race – We have our OWN unique issues in SA that is why we need this flag – to show just that.
If you think p2-INK are making lots of $$$ from the flags you obviously have the business mind of a nut the size of one of Pee-Wee-Herman’s left testicle. They have paid for the production of these flags, and then they DONATING the profits to charity (I hear this year it is Pride and also a cause for Lesbians in townships.
You say NOTHING IS WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY – you IDIOT- Come and life in Gugulethu for 2 days as an out lesbian (or gay man, you sound a bit androgynous…) – and then you tell me if you still think there is nothing wrong with this country…
You keep saying this is not about race – but let me cut and paste what you have said earlier TO A BLACK PERSON in this forum “Get over your struggle now, and stop playing the race card. I have a nice flag you can wave… To memorate (mmm..Petunia! you can’t spell!) your struggle… Its a pink skroplappie!..”
YOU RACIST COW
PS There was such an emotional (and beautiful) comm. string starting regarding Kevin, and you had to go and spoil it. You are just one of those people who have to say something bad ALL the time – because it is the only way you can feel important about yourself – I dare you – SAY SOMETHING GOOD ABOUT THE FLAG.
something good. mmm it works great to keep the dust off the tv cabinet?
and if you place it in JIK… you can use it as a white flag… for peace… and ill wave it now.
I am 17 – love the flag. Oh, BTW, You referred to MY age (gee I feel special) Actually I am 17 years old, if you MUST know. My BF is black (and when you offend him, you offend me and millions of others with your racist remarks)
My father gave me some money (yes I still get pocket money to buy a flag and I am happy that I am also contributing to charity.
Petunia, sorry to say, BUT YOU SOUND ANCIENT. In 10 tears from now I will only be 27 (and still HOT) – I still have a life time ahead of me to enjoy this flag!! Leave us to do so (And now I also know you have a problem with gay teenagers!!!! Gee Petunia….Just can’t win with you, eh?
Sean
xxxxxx
yeah it shows. and dont make your problems ours… Im glad your hot, if only now you can get a personality..l. then you’ll have everything
oo weee
Kevin we love you. You are amazing Kevin. I hope you know how much you made me cry??? lol. Sweet love and happiness to you boy! Glad you are alive
SHYBOY
The Great Flag Debate. Now now boys and girls…. lets not loose sight of what we have fought for in SA – the freedom to express an opinion – and that’s exactly what Mr Fiddler has done… express an opinion. In my opinion, his opinion is somewhat misguided and ill-informed.
I would like to know if P2-INK have ever claimed that their flag is an “official” SA LGBTI flag? Or have they simply come up with a flag design and marketed their design to the gay market?
If they claim to be the official “gay” flag – then the question as to whether the design is acceptable to all and properly constituted is appropriate. If theirs is simply a design that is appealing to the LGBTI community – then kudos to them and stop your jealous whining all you flag haters!
To politicize this flag and refer to SA’s embarrassing LGBTI issue track record and the need for a “inclusive national flag” and questioning if “we need a South African version of the rainbow flag….” – well I’ve never read such opinionated drivel in my life. All of this opinion and conjecture (from a “LGBTI rights campaigner”) is based on the view that this flag is the official gay flag.
Well do p2_INK claim that this is the official SA gay flag Mr Fiddler?
Or were you so busy fiddling about (sorry that’s weak but I couldn’t resist) that you forgot to clarify this point with P2-INK before you launched into your diatribe based on “many comments made both online and in conversations recently held”?
You are advocating that “a national debate is wholeheartedly necessary to discuss this question.” I venture to say that there are far more important issues over which to have a national debate.
With your claimed knowledge and experience as a LGBTI rights campaigner I’m sure you could come up with a list of LGBTI issues a lot faster then me. If you are really struggling to think of something important to debate why not talk to our lesbian community about corrective rape?
And finally – unfortunately I’m not paid by the word like I guess you are so I’ll keep this short – have you confirmed that Cape Town Pride have “adopted” the P2-INK flag? I’d like to know who you spoke to to get their side of the story?
In closing Mr Fiddler, I suggest you wrap yourself in a plain white flag and then you can imagine your flag to be any color you like. I know what flag I’ll be flying.
Supporter. Okay, I have to admit, I supported the concept from the start, anything that can unite SA gays, but I really was not fond of the design.
I have to say however, the more I look at it. It is kinda growing on me.
Regardless of anyone’s opinion, even the article writer, I believe that P2-INk’s intentions with this are great, and that is something worth supporting.
At least they DID something. And if they make some money off it, then “well done” to them. We pay every day for stupid products and taxes that makes fat cats fatter, and that has nothing to do with our community. At least I’d know my money is going towards a gay brother, rather than anybody else
LOVE THE NEW FLAG. CAN WE NOT JUST ALL BE HAPPY? WAVE THE FLAG IF YOU WANT – IF YOU DON’T WANT TO- JUST GO ON WITH YOUR LIFE AS BEFORE – WE ALL HAVE CHOICES HERE!! BUT DON’T TRY AND BREAK SOMETHING DOWN THAT IS OVIOUSLY ALREADY DOING SO MUCH GOOD.
PS I read somewhere that P2-INK is run (from a small apartment) buy a hot gay couple who are engaged (mwah…love it!) and using their savings for this, and then donating money to charities from the profits.
Who are these guys? I WANNA MARRY SOMEONE LIKE THAT!!! Lol (come on, just a joke, I am sure petunia will find SOMETHING again about what I have to say and turn it into a NEGATIVE debate (sigh…)
lol… no not this time. lol… no… not actually… this is the most sence you’ve made so far! *wink*
Why the quarrel?. Jason, I think you’re over-analysing the whole thing. There is no such thing as a South African LGBTI community and thus there can never be an all-encompassing symbol.
As such, there will be people who like the P2-Ink design and will wave it about. There will also be those that vociferously denounce it, like yourself. I think that the majority will be ambivalent.
Personally, I don’t really care one way or the other. A flag is a flag. I don’t need a piece of coloured cloth to define me and I feel that there are more important things to write about than whether we need a national gay flag or not.
However, I do agree with you in that I doubt CIPRO will grant intellectual property rights to this design as it hardly differs from the original.
Rob
I am 17 and love the flag. Oh, BTW, `Petunia` referred to MY age-implied that I sounded 15 or 16… (gee I feel special) Actually I am 17 years old, if you MUST know. My BF is black (and when you offend him, you offend me and millions of others with your racist remarks)
My father gave me some money (yes I still get pocket money to buy a flag and I am happy that I am also contributing to charity.
Petunia, sorry to say, BUT YOU SOUND ANCIENT. In 10 tears from now I will only be 27 (and still HOT) – I still have a life time ahead of me to enjoy this flag!! Leave us to do so (And now I also know you have a problem with gay teenagers!!!! Gee Petunia….Just can’t win with you, eh?
Sean
xxxxxx
Changed my mind. I previously posted on this forum critisizing this as a money making scheme, and it seems that I was wrong.
For this I do appologize. I just wish that the reporter had included this fact in the article. I realize that the topic was more on the merits of the flag itself, but I feel sorry that the people at P2-INK have had to suffer the accusations as the ones I made.
Full support! VIVA!!!!. I had also previously been quite negative (apologies for my posts!) and now that I have done a bit more reading (pity the reporter did NOT) on P2-INK and the flag – I FULLY SUPPORT it. Well done. I wish we had more gay people like P2-INK who not only want to make S.Africa a better place for gay people (especially our black lesbians in the townships) but are ACTUALLY contributing to a better society. And as one of the previous people said – VIVA THE SOUTH AFRICAN GAY FLAG- VIVA! (lol, I have always wanted to say that!)
xxxxxxlove and happiness kills the bitches!!!!!!!!!!!!!xxxxxxxxx
Flag gets more hits than ARMANI on Mamba. Love it!
Is the flag palgerised?. I’m sorry to say this but the flag looks like an exact copy of the one I created and posted a couple if years ago on a blog I used to run. The only difference is the black colouring. Dodgy, to say the least.
*Plagerised. Should be plagerised… misspelt it *smiley*
Copies. Hey Doug, let’s be honest, there is no real brain surgery involved in this design, so if your original design was this simplistic, chances are VERY good that someone else will come up with something similar. That does not necessarily make it a copy of yours…
Flag. I do not believe we need another flag. While flags, or other symbols, can unite, they can also divide further. Hopefully, I am not repeating a previous comment, but…I am South African, and gay. Therefore the SA flag, and Baker flag serve my identity purposes perfectly. Do I need another flag to identify me as a SA gay man?? No! What next, identification as male, and coloured! No thanks. Firstly, I am South African, secondly gay.
Personally I have to agree with you on this. I think they are wrong for deciding on their own that the lgbti needs a new flag without finding out our opinion first. The rainbow flag works very well for me and I think it shows solitude for all the lgbti people in the world as we all recognise and use it. Now this South African version of it dares to seperate us from other lgbti people in the world which doesn’t make sense to me. And honestly speaking I think the design isn’t nice at all. Lets stick to the rainbow that speaks to all of us and let it be.
LOVE THE NEW FLAG!. Now that I know more, I disagree with this article – what a wonderful concept and also they are donating their profits to charities. Who else is doing this? WELL DONE
Well done!. These guys are helping our lesbian sisters in the townships regarding CORRECTIVE RAPE by donating to their cause and helping them out. THANK YOU. I wish I had the money to do so!
Yebo!. Love it. Thank you for all the work you are doing regarding corrective rape. I have bought my flag and it is up in my small apartment in Melville!
Yebo!. Love it. Thank you for all the work you are doing regarding corrective rape. I have bought my flag and it is up in my small apartment in Melville!
Proud of new flag. We (P2-ink) should have done this ages ago. Thank you.
WELL DONE. I was down in CT and loved seeing the flag hanging all over the place. Come on JHB! Come on Durbs! lets get the flag there! I bought one and happy that I could contribute to our new identity as well as charity (such as corretive rape)
CT Lesbians rule!. I was recently on a FANTASTIC weekend away wit the CT lesbians where they sold the new gay flag to raise funds to fight against corrective rape (I did not know much about it, and now that I do, I hope we can all help out0
SAW YOU ON SABC!. Thank you for this flag. Thank you thank you thank you Thank you thank you thank you Thank you thank you thank you Thank you thank you thank you
No. I do not believe we need another flag.
Thank you so much.. Our new flag is already bringing cultures (within the gay communities) together – If you have seen the flag on SABC (Motswako) and what it means to thousands – then you will understand.
Thank you so much.
FULL SUPPORT. Now that I am much more informed about our SA gay flag – I wholly support it. Hope to see more of this beautiful symbol and keep up the good work!!!!
Rockin dudes!. Love it. Heard u talk on 5fm! Well done! love it!!
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